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[jef nicks]

After 7 years in business, I am coming to the realization that the cost of complying with the three music licensing outfits is going to force me to discontinue live music, and probably the use of CD recorded music in my dining room. Anyone out ther care to comment?

[4dabirds]

My friend is a musician and during a recent discussion Ascap and their extortive practices came up. Here is some research she did for me to help us with the ridiculous costs. We haven't gone into any agreement, but I will tell you the amount of our yearly licensing fee has gone down from almost $3k to $352. This fee is still too high given the type of entertainment we provide (open mike for local musicians, a juke box owned by a vending company, and sat tv), but at least it is a step in the right direction.

Below is the info she provided to help us fight ASCAP:

1) Confirm your ascap rep is legit, there are reports
of scammers taking advantage of bar owners.
Corporate office is in New York, I would ask for
his supervisors name and number. Tell the local
ascap rep your concern, that's good business.
During the conversation I would say..."what is your
territory?" "How long have you been with the
company?" "Where's your office?" "Mail me your card and letter of intent" "send me your proposal".

Dave - put yourself in the position of control by asking
him questions and demanding EVERYTHING in writing.
Looks like Ascap is hiring any joker to collect money, they
are currently hiring in NY, Boston, Sacramento, San Antonio,
Portland and Seattle.

IMPORTANT: Ascap can only collect money for Ascap published
artists. Every time someone plays or performs Ascap published
materials...they owe a per song fee. Up till now musicians were
responsible for this fee. I assume Ascap can not afford to go out
and collect these fees from musicians. Looks as if they are creating
policies and staff to collect from Bar Owners, restaurants, airlines,
retailers, etc.
Following are ASCAP policies and more, from people
in the business. Note: The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. Dave, your position on
this fee is to prove you do not hire bands that perform Ascap material.

2) Juke Box - you pay your fees to "Ascap" and "BMI"
(these are the 2 largest publishing companies in the world)
through your lease. Tell your rep that you are on his
side and are happy to support composers, that's why you
PAY YOUR LEASE! Note: Dave, I am surprised BMI
isn't pulling the same ****.

3) Live Music - Your bands perform All original music. BUT you
can ask your bands (or their promoters) for "set-lists". You would like
to opt for the "per program license" instead of the "blanket
license", BECAUSE to the best of your knowledge, your bands
perform original music. Most original bands haven't established an account
with either publishing house, until your selling records, Ascap
or BMI don't want to talk to you. Dave, because of this situation
I will use BMI.

4) You DO NOT pay your bands and NO DOOR CHARGES.
La Veta is a very small seasonal town, local bands work for
exposure, (that means they sell their Cd's ALL ORIGINAL MUSIC).

5) $3,000.00 per year Blanket Fee, how did they arrive at that figure?
My understanding is they do a "Census Survey" for results
"Performances in a medium". We know your a Bar, but what Region?
Huerfano County is the 2nd poorest county in the nation and NOT to be
combined with Denver, Colorado Springs or Pueblo.

You are now all powerful. Give that ASCAP rep a call.
Have a successful day, Paula.

[zachary]

A good piece of reading. Simply the best. Its quite enjoyable.

[LiarLiar]

Great info, I'm dealing with pushy F*s, too.. Grrr.

[midget98]

Our club is currently "negotiating" with these leeches. We own an adult entertainment facility and last year our renewal form showed a new fee for our type of venue.
Since we are no different than any other tavern/ restaurant business, we sent a check for the amount that type of business would normally pay along with a letter of explanation and stating that we were prepared to initiate a class action suit if they continued to demand an extra fee.
A few weeks ago we received a letter with a "refund" (their check) and little in explanation. We promptly returned their check ( so that we were in the clear) and since then we have not heard from them. We are not disputing a reasonable fee; just that we are in the same catagory as other bars.
The only way to deal with this type of problem is from a position of strength.

[ckysar]

I realized that BMI actually stood for 'Black Mail Incorporated' after a series of very threatening phone calls and fedex packages.
I have a couple of points to add.
First even though most of the live music we played was original they wanted to charge me seven thousand (I sell natural burgers and beer and wine in a small restaurant) This made music un affordable. I was paying local artist plus feeding this was a good thing for them and for my customers (a bit of a money looser for me even before fees).
When talking to this scum I asked what are these fees for, "Oh they go to the artist that wrote the music'
I then asked 'in all our conversations you never asked for a play list how are you going to distribute my fees to those artist?, reply "we will use air play to determine disrtibution' WHAT A CROCK
I asked some of the artist that played for me about these thieves and two artist gave me almost the same comment, every year they are sent a letter stating "CONGRATULATIONS, we collected x for you last year, we will apply this to your dues and this will leave you with a balance due to us of X"

Final note HERE IS THE LOOP HOLE
If you sell the music on cd you can call the playing a 'demo' like record stores do , so you can avoid these charges ( but please check with your legal adviser).

[foxhound]

I just received a call from these jackals the other day. They're nothing but extortionists who come out of the woodwork every so many years to harrass everybody. I think it's when their union membership starts to drop. I have yet to pay them. If I have a juke box, I tell them to go bother the vendor. If I have live bands, I tell them to go bother the bands. This person asked if we had music, and like a dummy, I answered yes. She said I needed a music license to play purchased CDs. I said the royalties were paid when the CD was purchased. She said I was playing them for the public. I said I was not broadcasting on an airwave, using any music for commercials or generating any revenue from it. In the past I have told them (when asked what we did for music) that I come out of the kitchen every half hour and play a set on my kazoo, all public domain songs like Mary Had a Little Lamb, of course. Here's what you do: You tell them to come and listen to every band, every juke box selection and go through all your CDs. They must make a list of which of those artists belong to their organization and who the royalties are paid to, name and address. You will not pay until they can prove you owe anything. If they keep pushing it, you can threaten to charge them promotional fees for featuring their artists in your fine establishment. I have no problem supporting musicians, but a lot of musicians, especially prior to the Big Band era cut record sides for a flat fee and never received any royalties at all, and they and their descendants still don't. Many of them spent their lives in destitution and died broke. If this money was actually going to them or their families, I wouldn't mind. But it doesn't. It goes to fund ASCAP and BMI officials. They can't do anything to you anyway. They'd have to take you to court and it would cost them more than it's worth. Juke boxes are covered under your contract, as already stated. If you have live music, refer them to the band members as they choose what to play. This is the same as me buying tables and chairs and paying a fee to the guy who designed them every time someone sits in one. Ridiculous. I know they will call me back several times before they go away, but they will go away and empty-handed. I'll shut the music off before I pay, but I won't have to. They've been doing this as long as I've been in this business, wihich is 37 years, and I'm sure they were doing it before then. The worst thing you can do is pay them, as now you're marked as a schmuck and they'll never leave you alone.

[foxhound]

Update: I looked on the ASCAP web site and see there has been legislation passed to include playing CDs as requiring a music license. ASCAP claims that their license gives you automatic permission to perform any music listed with them without having to contact the artist or distributor. So in essence, if a band is playing "Born to Run" and Springsteen happens to be in your place and you don't have a music license, he could sue you. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning while turning in your winning lottery ticket. ASCAP sets the license fees as they see fit (make them up based on how much they think they can get out of you) claiming there's too many diverse situations for them to set standard fees. They will "negotiate" with you. I still say extortion, and I won't pay them.

[isitoget]

Originally Posted by jef nicks

After 7 years in business, I am coming to the realization that the cost of complying with the three music licensing outfits is going to force me to discontinue live music, and probably the use of CD recorded music in my dining room. Anyone out ther care to comment?

Ones they get you in their sight, you can never get them out of your business. The only way to have music in your restaurant is to go through a company that has already paid for the priviledge, such as your cable company, Direct TV, Dish Network, etc. At least then you are getting more for your money than just music. Make sure if you do it, you let all 3 music licence outfits what you have done and quit paying them. They will take you of their sights. In my case I waited 6 months after that and on ocasion I would get life music and never had a problem again. If you go to Home Page, you will find more info on the subject.

[ondrums]

To All Ascap Victims!!! Performing Musicians Get No Breaks From The Industry! And Who Buys (pays Retail!)the Equipment These Artists Endorse? We Do! They Get Their Equipment Via Endorsements, While We Pay Through The Nose For Ours. I Say We Boycott All Equipment Endorsed By These "artists" That's Right, Boycott The Equipment Endorsed By These Artists. Tell Ascap That The Little Performing Musician Does Have Power Over The Industry In The Equipment We Buy. Let These Equipment Companies Know You Will No Longer Buy Their Equipment Due To The Endorsers. We Have To Fight Back.